Atheism is the lack of belief
Atheism is the lack of belief in the existence of gods. It is not a belief system or a religion but the denial that supernatural beings exist. There are atheists with all sorts of philosophies and beliefs.
You’re already an atheist
Even if you believe in a god, you probably don’t believe in other gods – Zeus, Osiris, Jupiter, Thor, Allah or Jesus. It’s hypocritical to be skeptical in the holy book, revealed prophets, miracle stories, or holy men of all religions but yours. You are an atheist when it comes to everyone else’s gods, so why give your god a free pass?
The burden of proof is on the theist
Can you prove that an invisible pink elephant is not floating above your head? How does one prove a negative in the absence of evidence? Theists make the exceptional claim that there is a god. That claim requires exceptional proof. The burden of proof is on the theist to prove God exists.
By using reason and science, humans have been expanding our knowledge of the world. Yet religionists continue to claim that there exists a supernatural realm immune to reason. Where is their proof? If a god is needed to create the universe, what created God? Rather than offer proof, mystics have often tried to silence and discredit those who reveal the complexity and majesty of the universe.
There are natural explanations for the universe
What keeps flowers from turning into rocks, or rocks from floating in the sky? It’s not the will of a supernatural deity, but the fact that flowers are not rocks, and gravity keeps things on the ground. The universe operates according to causal principles, without the need for any supernatural power to keep things from getting chaotic.
Morality does not need religion
Religious texts can offer moral guidance, but they are not the source of moral principles. Humans discovered long ago that following certain rules makes life more productive, peaceful, and pleasurable. Morality derives from human nature, not divine guidance. If one wishes to live a virtuous life, it is better to do so because of the earthly rewards of being virtuous than the fear of eternal punishment. Unlike a theist, an atheist knows that one life is all he has, and will try to live each day to the fullest.
Further reading
- The One Minute Case Against the Cosmological Argument
- The One Minute Case Against the Existence of God
- Internet Infidels – An Introduction to Atheism (1997)
- Wikipedia – Atheism
- David Veksler: The Case Against God
- A review of “The Purpose Driven Life” (The ethics of Christianity)
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This is a good idea! Keep them coming!
– Dinesh.
I look forward to reading more cases. Great idea!
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This is a great piece. I especially agree with the part about morality not requiring religion. I’ve long found this to be one of the most overlooked points in any discussion about the rationality of needing/seeking to believe in a supreme being.
Morality apart from an absolute moral law is only as good as the society that espouses it. There are no grounds for any criticism of any behavior from one society to the next. If for instance 1000 people develop their own morality that is OK. The only way it can be controlled is by force from another group that disagrees.
If the starting point is accidental, meaningless, and purposeless then there can not be infused purpose and meaning except on an individual basis or a group of individuals that agree and form their own society. There is no way to rebut their behavior. You may disagree but that is all. You may also stop them by force. The strongest survive is allowable in the evolutionary equation and in fact it is the equation.
No one can lay claim to billions of years of evolutionary morals pointing to their morals as the best. Reason will assure this is true. Everyone’s morals are the best for them and their society is the only logical conclusion. Now they may have to fight for them and indeed they do but God forbid anyone claim they have the answer.
But yet we see time and again unfounded concerns in the natural world. Don’t argue or try to persuade simply find your supporters and form your own society but put most of your effort on defending your morals from the stronger or you will not survive
I used to be athiest, and had very little joy in my life. Now I am a “born again” bible believing Christian and I’m still quite far from perfect, buy I am truly happy and content with life—a joy that comes from places unseen like the best part of a euphoric high of your drug of choice, except it is contstant, everlasting, and FREE! :lol::cool:
Here’s my opinion on life, my two cents:
Your hearts become hardened, and your souls wither without the Holy Spirit in you. Somewhere, deep inside a hardening heart, is the knowledge and belief that there is something out there that is bigger than us, something we cannot wrap our minds around–a child understands this better than us becuase their minds have not yet been programmed by the world/media.
You cannot “prove” God’s existance….if you could there would be no use for faith. Faith is the belief in things unseen.
The only proof you’ll see of God is the change in a person’s life who has accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour. Jesus’ only commandment to us is simple: to love people as you love yourself. You would be a fool not to believe in Christ and risk eternity in hell…..what do you have to lose by accepting Christ? Are you affraid of becoming a loving, strong, honest, healthy, happy person? 😀
It’s not too late to listen to that still small voice deep inside your heart…..the voice you heard as a child believing that all things are possible. The time is now!
Ask yourself: what do you live for? What motivates you? What brings you joy? Are you content with your life?:???:
Jesus Christ said he would return for His Church…..if that happens in your lifetime, then you will have your proof! The world will be a much different place when the true believers in Christ are all gone! An athiest probably would think “at last!”, but there are a lot more muslims than athiests…..and they believe in world domination, and they’ll stop at nothing until they have it.:evil:
My two (or three) cents 😉
Blessings
One of those Pretend “I used to be an Atheist” Christians.
Most Atheists live happier lives that Christians. Those Atheists with miserable lives are mostly found in Families dominated by Christians, and they feel harassed.
And yet here you are, offering your “ifs”. “If Jesus Christ Returns—if you were an atheist (a proper one) you would realise how absurd your vision of reality is thinking a 2000 year old Dead Palestinian would Physically descend down from the sky. This alone will make any decent, well-read, REAL atheist burst into laughter.
even if there was no God why cant you people just let people believe, you spend so much time trying to disprove things that youre afraid might be out of your control instead of persuing something that is true and good, what about all the people who were on the edge of suicide, drug addiction and what not who found God and changed thier life around?….shall we just tell them that its rubbish and we would have been happier for them to die in the street?
God is the moral law giver!…man would not create a God in which he has to submit to!
Man invented your god, so fuck you, fuck off, and go fuck your god. But you can’t. He’s not real.
Leave you alone? You can start by leaving us alone (i.e. not putting your bullshit opinion here).
1st of all keven and kris are 100% correct
2nd this comment… “Unlike a theist, an atheist knows that one life is all he has, and will try to live each day to the fullest.” this too is the same for a christian. were all called to influence people for jesus! that should be every christians desire… to see the lost find their salvation through christ. a passionate christian will do their very best everyday to tell people more about God knowing that when they die they are no longer able to have an influence on others. no-one should be living there life in fear of eternal punishement unless they know they are going to hell… in which case they would have to admit that there was a god to be fearful in the 1st place. i suggest u actually read a bible before you try critisise it… but u cant read it with ur heart hard because u will miss what God is saying!
3rd point… who do u think designed life in such a way that man should live like we do… of course following certain rules makes life more productive, peaceful, and pleasurable…. that is the way God designed life! then he gave us guidence on top of that… which means we have no excuse to fail at life!
i will agree some people do give there God a ‘free pass’. but my God has proven himself to me time and time again. that gives me reason to exclude any other God. i know my God is real… which means there can be no other God as He says in his word.
as for “There are natural explanations for the universe” der… god made the flower a flower and the rock a rock… he made all the laws of physics and even created time. your argument is absolutely pointless lookin at it from my perspective.
doesnt the fact that there are so many different ‘Gods’ show you enough evidence that there must be a spiritual realm? do you think religious people are just crazy??? would u know??? of course u wouldnt cos u have never been there! once you actually feel a touch from God u not only believe but KNOW he is real. the enemy has decieved others…. which is why there are so many differeny religions. if there was no spiritual realm people wouldnt have felt the urge to create a false God.
i will finish with… God has made it clear in his word that we will never fully understand him! so why bother tryin only to be dissapointed confused and come to the conlcusion in your own mind that there is no God. there is!
People have different gods is produced by our brain. Our biological thinking, which starts from ignorant, is a “god-inventing brain”. Your premise is false to prove that your god exists.
It’s even a defeating argument. If god is real, then people will easily know it and would have made one religion for it. The fact that there are many, proves that my explanation on Paragraph 1 proves I’m right.
absolutely astounding bob. i couldnt have said it better myself! God is real and He is alive. Christians are different from every other religion in the world, cause we dont serve a dead God. ours is alive and at work!! in His LOVE!
You don’t even make sense. You’re an idiot, just like those three other Christians up there, like most Christians. An idiot, lacking proper education.
😯 Well, to begin with if you believe in the existence of any god, by definiton you are a theist… wheater you believe in the gods of every single religion or not is completely irrelevant. For example the fact that I believe in the christian God makes me a theist, and the fact that I dont believe in other gods does not make an atheist… Because that would be a self-defeating statement, you cannot be an atheist and a theist at the same time. Just as you cannot have a square circle…thats the basis of all logic my friend…
Now the assumption that morality does not require a theistic belief is quite interestin. For if atheist are right (which they are not) then we human beings are simply an accident a product of evolution(which by the way evolution cannot explain complex systems) then there is simply no way to know if all of our so called moral values are right…. Perhaps I should point out pedofiles…if we are simply an accident then what makes us think that we are right, and they are wrong? what makes us think that antisocial behavior or any other pathological behavior should be condemned? How do we know that we are right and they are wrong?
Read a Bible before I criticize it. That’s actually funny. Perhaps you should remember that your god either personally murdered or ordered the murders of about 2 million people, including, specifically, children, the elderly, and the infirmed, just so the Hebrews could have their land. And for pregnant women, he reserved a special treat–to be torn apart. Mass murder and genocide is the most common theme in your Bible. Frankly I fail to see anything moral in killing folks for their possessions. Perhaps religious folks do.
Oh, before you start picking and choosing which parts of your Bible you agree with you must remember your own claims of it being divine. If you pick and choose that is the same a publicly admitting you do not accept the divinity of your Bible, just the parts you like. In other words, you’re just using it a a tool to bolster your own bigotry and hypocrisy. Claiming the good in there is worth the bad is like saying Ted Bundy should have been set free because he once helped a woman without killing her. I’ve always found it curious that God always hates the same things that any Christian sect hates.
Confusing morals and religion is a mistake made by virtually every religious person I’ve ever known. The two are not mutually exclusive however I do see a recurring theme of people using their religion not only to excuse their immoral behavior but also to absolve themselves of any personal responsibility. eg: God told a woman in Texas to kill her children. Not difficult for Christians to believe at all since there are so many passages in the Christian Bible where God did specifically tell his people to kill children. I do not think I would kill another human being no matter how many voices I was hearing. Although I could be wrong about that. I suppose it is possible to be that insane.
The definition of anti-christian, according to Christians is anyone that does not agree completely with them. I see no need to believe in mystical or supernatural beings therefore, I’m anti-Christian according to you.
I know of nobody that is attempting to force religious people to abandon their beliefs. On the other hand there are religious people across the land and around the world that are engaged in a never-ending campaign to force religion on schoolchildren, free-thinkers and persons of other religions by force of law or at gunpoint. I know of no free-thinker that bombed a medical clinic or flew airplanes into buildings. We do not object to your mythological beliefs. We’re just tired of you trying to force them down our throats.
Religion and freedom are mutually exclusive. They cannot co-exist. Religion is about telling people what books they can read, what foods they can dine on, how and when they are allowed sex, what they can say, how they can dress, etc. In short, controlling every aspect of a persons life. History is filled with Christians burning books, and the people that wrote them.
I do not need to believe in a mythical creature to know that stealing is wrong, that murder is immoral. Even if everyone else around me thought it was right, I’d still think it immoral. Contrary to the claims of one individual, a society that thought stealing and killing was OK would not last very long.
When someone becomes religious the change that overtakes them is fast and noticeable. They become judgmental, intolerant of anything that does not agree with their beliefs, continually condemn everyone else to a place they call Hell (which, incidentally, is a place your god created to send fallen angels, not people) and believe themselves superior to all those that are not religious. Curious they claim to believe in love yet preach hate and intolerance. Remember GAY (Got Aids Yet)? I find it plastered on religious sites across the internet. George Orwell may have made the terms ‘newspeak’ and ‘doublespeak’ common words but the Christians have taken the concepts to new levels. And, please, tell me why does your god love the smell of burning flesh? (Exodus 29:25)
One thing I’ve wondered about. Why do you need to pay a middle-man, your preacher, to pray for you? Is there some biblical prohibition against saying your own prayers? Or maybe the reason he calls you his flock is because, like sheep, you’re so easily fleeced.
In fairness, I am open-minded to this whole religion thingy. If someone could just provide one shred of evidence. Perhaps you could do as is written in Mark 16:18 and have a drink. Otherwise I suggest you follow the advise of Matthew 6:6 instead of being what is described in Mathew 6:5.
If nothing else you could get my attention by disproving any one of the following:
1. Americans do not agree on religion
2. Human judgment is imperfect
3. Religious truths cannot be determined by votes or force
4. Freedom is worth protecting
Otherwise, I do not care what you believe. Just stop trying to force me to believe it, too. If I need to pray to supernatural beings I have plenty of ancestors I can start with.
Have a good day!
Jerry there’s a the thing called death. what then? Do you Actually want to just vanish from existance, not knowing you werent even created? Whats the point of even living if their is nothing to look forward to after you are gone. Simply put.
Michael,
I look forward to the rest of this life, and my guess is that Jerry does the same. Why do you require a second life to enjoy this one? I, for one, have no need to invent or believe in a second life (for which you have no proof) for my own comfort. I am entirely comfortable knowing that when I die, I will no longer exist in any form but my friends’ and family’s memories. I am also happy knowing that I was born (i.e. not created.)
The point of living is simple: to love, to live, and to love living.
Hey, One Minute Case! Where’s the case for secular morality? Sounds like we need it – people seem confused.
Where does this goofy religious notion come from that atheists have “little or no joy” in our lives???
I was raised a fundy, and when I was trapped in that environment my life was governed by hate, subjugation, judgement, guilt, and fear. Worse, I bought it hook, line, and sinker, and actually held the nonsensical belief that if I didn’t toe the line “god” would send me to “hell.” What a way to grow up. Needless to say, I suffered major depression, so much for the “joy” of belief in god… I know many other ex-believers with much the same experience.
People absolutely WILL and HAVE created a god they must submit to. This is a deep psycological flaw in the human brain. Religious fundys remind me in many disturbing ways of the behavior patterns seen in victims of emotional abuse. I showed many of the signs myself, before I broke free.
But my purpose here isn’t “poor lil me”!!! I broke free of superstition and live a life I love! There IS joy in the life of an atheist, and it comes from within MYSELF and *I* am responsible for it! I love that!
I am truly sorry that a believer’s life is so sad that you must imagine your joy. No wonder you defend it so devotedly.
What on earth do you mean “What’s the point of even living if there is nothing to look forward to after you are gone”?!?!??? If you can’t look around you and see millions of reasons to live, you seriously need to rethink your life!
I take great comfort in knowing that after I die I will no longer exist. Why should death be scary… surely I’ll be long past caring when it comes down to it. I refuse to live in an irrational shadow of fear. I love being ephemeral and knowing that our loved ones who have died exist now in my memories of them. (not to mention the great comfort in knowing that if my crazy fundy parents ever get a hold of my remains I will be long past caring what nonsense they convert me to post mortem! hehee!)
Does anyone else think its ridiculously self-serving to make up a system where we’re all so bloody important we exist forever, even though nothing else in the universe does? Really… ?
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE don’t quote the Bible or anything else your pastor says regularly at me… I’ve heard it all before and its all drivel. If you’re talking to someone who doesn’t believe the Bible, quoting the Bible to “prove” the Bible is about as effective as quoting the Great Pumpkin. (and makes you sound about as coherent) The fact that people sometimes turning their lives around after finding religion is irrelevant. What about the fact of those who turn their lives around WITHOUT religion? Do they not count, just because they don’t advance your cause? What about the extremely religious who cave into the pressure and end up on drugs or whatever other forbidden thing? (a few televangelists come to mind!) And the multitudes of non-religious to whom that never happens? Correlation does not equal causation.
Religion’s order to go “influence people for jesus” (or whatever diety you’re groveling to… they’re all about the same) is to me a very scary proposition. I absolutely will NOT sit idly by while people spread hate, fear, guilt, superstition, subjugation, and judgement! Not if I can speak up and prevent the spread of the emotional abuse I endured. I care about my fellow human beings too much.
Live happy and free!!!
First of all, I did not write this to “argue” my “case” for Christianity. Honestly, upon reading this article and the comments following, I saw no need to add to the already heated debate ensuing between human beings hundreds of miles away. Christians and atheists can verbally spar for days on end, but the result is not beneficial to anyone; in fact, usually it causes bitterness rather than healing. So don’t worry, I’m not going to “preach at you” or spit out Bible verses that you’ve probably heard a million times. I just want you guys to know that I am praying for you. (I can picture the eye-rolling and sighing already, but just please, hear me out). I’m praying that you find joy and fulfillment in every day, wherever you are, and that maybe, just maybe, you will wake up one morning and realize that you are not content with your life as it is. My heart aches for you, and for all those who choose to shield their eyes to what Christ has done for them, and wants to do in their lives. Bottom line: you can yell at someone all day about how they’re going to hell, but you cannot change their hearts or their minds. Only Jesus do that. My point is, you atheists who so strongly believe that Christians are brain-washed fools who waste their time sacrificing their existence on earth for a supreme being who doesn’t exist, please don’t give up on us. Not yet. If you will just look at, and listen to, and spend time with a true follower of Christ, I believe that God will enable you to see that our cause is not worthless, neither is our Savior imaginary. But if you choose not to, there’s no fact or verse I can shout to stop you. I wish you all the best, and I am praying for everyone who views this site every day.
God bless.
Oh, Dear Ashton, How sad! Do you truly believe that only Christians feel joy? I am a most joyful and happy person in my strong belief that Christ was not born of a virgin nor was he divine, nor is there a god who is his father. I embrace no religion and am, in fact, a-theist. I was indoctrinated to believe in Christianity from a very early age, but was fortunate to have a very inquisitive and exploring mind. I grew up with true followers of Christ–they are all human and make the same mistakes that followers and non-followers make. Nor are they any happier than non-believers. The truth began to emerge for me, when I carefully explored other faiths and came to realize that most people simply believe whatever they have been taught.
Ashton, do some exploring with an open mind and you will find true happiness in freedom from superstition.
Please do not pray for me.
Suzanne
Greetings all,
Interesting topic here and like Aston says it is very heated. Ashton, would love to break bread with you sometime. Your communication was as your Saviour Jesus Christ may have put it. That is a true reflection of Him. It is true, we Christians do have a black eye out there due to the actions of many who claimed to be Christians. But, I submit to you readers, those wrong actions were always in contrast to Jesus’ teaching.
Jennifer says, “I absolutely will NOT sit idly by while people spread hate, fear, guilt, superstition, subjugation, and judgement! Not if I can speak up and prevent the spread of the emotional abuse I endured. I care about my fellow human beings too much.” Jennifer, as I read your writing I read alot of passion, but I also saw the hate. You said that you care about your fellow human beings too much, but is that only if they are not “fundy” Christians. All I saw in your writting was that there is alot of bitterness toward your parents. And you error in looking at them and lumping everything about God into them. The sad truth is that they are probably people who evidently had made some serious errors. But, Jennifer, I ask you to go back and look at Jesus, was his life and teaching the same as what you saw?
Jerry, makes some valid points and if I looked at the Bible in the way that he did, I guess I would come to the same conclusion. But Jerry, you have the knowledge of the scriptures but you do error because you have done what you told others not to do and that is to pick and choose. It was pretty funny about Mark 16 verse but you know as I know that your sense of using the verse was a bit out of context. But, lets discuss about the millions that God ordered to be killed in Canaan. That is what makes the Bible so unique. It shows the good and the evil. Alhough you do error in pitting God as the evil one. What was demonstrated there is the Judgement of God passed on humans who refused to believe. We don’t like to look at that part because we want God to be all Love, but in his essence He has to be Just as well. The judgement that was demonstrated in the Old Testament is the same judgement that will come again. Now, before you jump off into the wrong tangent and make the God of the Bible the God of Islam, let me say this to you. Any of the people who repented in the land of Canaan was spared. One example is Rahab (matter of fact, her whole family was spared). We choose to forget one important fact here and that is all death is the result of Sin. All life is the result of Jesus Christ paying for that sin penalty. Hence, why we do not as Christians go around wishing people were taken out of this world.
Jerry something else I noticed you said, “I know of no free-thinker that bombed a medical clinic or flew airplanes into buildings.” You are right but I do recall of a “free thinker” by the name of Adolf Hitler. Oh and don’t let me forget about Joseph Stalin. So, yes in all honesty Jerry, “religion” has acted wrong in the past, but, may I conclude that God and Jesus Christ are not “religion” they are our supernatural transcendent God and Savior. Look to them and tell me what you see.
One last and final thing. A Christian has no reason to disprove any of the following:
If nothing else you could get my attention by disproving any one of the following:
1. Americans do not agree on religion
2. Human judgment is imperfect
3. Religious truths cannot be determined by votes or force
4. Freedom is worth protecting
For they outside of your first point are what Christians (true followers of Christ, not “religious” people) stand up for.
Freedom is sabotaged because of religion !
I am not going to get into logistics because obviously if you dont believe in the lord my words are not going to change it. People dont see things that they dont want to see.
Jesus is the Saviour and he loves you. he is my best friend, and I am in love with him. Give him a chance and he will work miracles.
As an open minded individual i found it necessary to explore many religions and if possible find a truth. What i found is that the similarities are many. that religion is a way to communicate a believed morality of a given time. Unfortunately many ignore that the speakers of this morality may have a different agenda. Yes there are many pure speakers (they actually believe what they are saying) but that doesn’t make what they say the truth. And there are those who say things to gain what they want. When a person can gain a following of “believers” for what they say it promotes their teachings as being right. I believe it is this following is a basic human trait kinda like being a god almost all the gods i learned of wanted a following,, hmmm wonder why? Believing in a god gives control back to a person who has little or no control of their life, it gives them hope that where they can see their failings as being defeated they will somehow be saved by a higher power. People please understand that our hope should be that we live as happy a life as possible and that we can somehow make our childrens lives happier for generations to come. This will be accomplished by communicating what we find to be our experiences of truth and fact not an argument of a belief.
Wow, I haven’t read such good arguments in a long time. I definitely felt a lot of resentment towards Christians from the ‘non-believers’ and Im not sure how they could feel that way. I don’t know many Christians who go around forcing their beliefs on others. Christianity is a choice and some of you act like your being held down and made to believe!…how silly. I think a lot pf non-believers have happiness everyday..I just don’t think its the kind that would sustain you no matter what happened. My happiness is dependent on nothing. I have filled my life with things I thought would make me happy..and they did! but, it never would last long. It was such a fading type of joy. When I think about dying and living eternally, as hard as that is to grasp, it gives me a joy. Because then I know that no matter what happens to me it will all be alright.
I dont go around trying to force my religion on people. I do love people and try to lead by example though and thats what every Christ follower tries to do. Non-believers love others and lead by example, but why?
What do people really get for all their hard work? I have seen the burden God has placed on us all. Yet God has made everything beautiful for its own time. He has planted eternity in the human heart, but even so, people cannot see the whole scope of God’s work from beginning to end. So I concluded there is nothing better than to be happy and enjoy ourselves as long as we can. And people should eat and drink and enjoy the fruits of their labor, for these are gifts from God.
And I know that whatever God does is final. Nothing can be added to it or taken from it. God’s purpose is that people should fear him. What is happening now has happened before, and what will happen in the future has happened before, because God makes the same things happen over and over again.
That was verses 9-15 of the third Chapter of Ecclesiastes. NLT
its one of my favorites because it simply puts things. We should eat drink and be merry! live life. dont worry too much. Things are taken care of. and its alright if you dont believe in a God, but I do. And its so fullfilling. 😀
Religion can mend a life, it can provide healing for one who is broken or provide a compass for one who is lost. Studies have shown that it can help reverse the effects of terminal illnesses…
Whether I was Christian, Atheist, Buddist or none of the above, if a Christian was laying terminally ill before me I would not hesitate to read passages from the bible for their benefit, I believe anyone else in this forum would too, as it is in our nature to love and to nurture.
There are many great benefits of being part of a religion, but my main concern is this; Who am I, who are you, or anyone else to stand above another, claim that their life is worthless, or incomplete, or leading them to damnnation?
Fair enough Christians or Catholics or whoever may be overcome by euphoria and the joy of sitting on Gods lap, but as soon as they turn from loving nurturing believers into recruitment officers, they more often than not become insensitive, judgemental, and self righteous.
Perhaps if we put our efforts, our focus our prayers and our time into supporting each other, from whatever lifestyle or creedance we come, and cease trying to change or ‘fix’ each other, we could prevent future episodes of September 11, The Crusades, The Holocaust, Iraq, Afghanistan, The Bali bombings and all things alike.
I wish you all peace, love and freedom, stay true to yourself and your internal drive to love and to nurture, the rest will take care of its self.
The problem with atheism…also in one minute.
1- “Atheism is the lack of belief in the existence of gods. It is not a belief system or a religion but the denial that supernatural beings exist.” Wait…so…basically you believe that supernatural beings don’t exist. But at the same time, it’s not a belief.
That’s also called a universal negative because you would have to be in every place at all times to honestly declare God does not exist. “How does one prove a negative in the absence of evidence?”
2- If “atheism is the lack of belief in the existence of gods”, then calling someone an atheist because they believe in one God is not proper logic…namely because it’s contradictory.
3- “Yet religionists continue to claim that there exists a supernatural realm immune to reason.” God must go against all reasoning then. Why? Because we can’t see him? We also can’t see love, but for some strange reason, we believe the people who say they love us. Are immaterial things just not real because we can’t use our senses on them? Faith is not material. We can’t see it, touch it, etc. Yet, we have FAITH in our minds to think logically. I have faith in myself because I was logically and purposefully made by an almighty God. You must have faith in yourself despite the fact that your brain comes from a random mess.
4- What created God? If there was a being BEFORE God that would cause an Infinite Regress, meaning there would be an infinite chain of causes. This is logically impossible, there must be an uncaused first cause. Well, where did the question come from in the first place? We realize we are mortal human beings with a beginning and an end- essentially the cause of a much greater being. The question “What created God?” is flawed because we merely see what is true of us and try to tag it on God. He, however, is a cause, not an effect. Only effects need causes. God is self existent.
5- “the complexity and majesty of the universe” is supposed to explain itself. Ok, so, rocks are rocks and flowers are flowers. Where’s the explanation? You say the “universe operates according to causal principles”. So the universe is self existent then. But what about global warming or the way stars like the sun die, or what about the law of entropy? The universe shows signs of age and decay.
6- “Humans discovered long ago that following certain rules makes life more productive, peaceful and pleasurable.” Isn’t it interesting how even though we all don’t agree on the extent of morality, we do all seem to want to live our lives productively, peacefully and pleasurably? Whoever thought of that first really spread the word quick because everyone seems to be after the same thing. “Morality derives from human nature, not divine guidance.” But what if there is a degree of morality in all humanity? Wouldn’t that make you quesion what we all have in common? Is the morality the result of the Divine?
“Unlike a theist, an atheist knows that one life is all he has, and will try to live each day to the fullest.” Have you not read the Old Testament failures of Israel and the New Testament redemption? We are the ones with life. Each day is a new day since God has restored those of his creation who believe that Jesus’s life was perfect and righteous and his death was equivelant to the punishment of all sin. So that the people who want to bridge the gap between their screwed up lives and God’s perfect holiness can now be identified with Him. His “children” or heirs of the reward of righteousness.
If you’re right, we both gain nothing and I lose nothing because my life is content. But if I’m right, I have everything to gain and you have everything to lose.
OK – I can’t get anywhere trying to plow througfh all the bullshit of politics – so I can’t even get a toe-hold on how to TRY to prevent the continuance and exponentially worsening shift we are on towards ” 1984 “( Big Brotherism) , so I will express my Disdain against ALL – Yes – I said – ALL , Organized Religion(s) !!! (but particularly Christianity ( ….Here it Is . Why does this Supreme Being decide to send his Only representative / extension of ITSELF (not HIMSELF ) at a time in History when: people thought that Earth was the Center of the Universe ;people were barely out of the Stone Age , etc. ? I mean – What kind of a Moron IS This ” Guy ” ???!!
A little history…the Roman Empire during the time of Christ, as oppressive as it was, offered tidbits such as enforced peace (Pax Romana), paved roads (easier traveling), and Greek (the language of many of the common people). The books of the New Testament were written in Greek. A combination of the above really helped the spread of Christianity. 2,000 years later people are still discovering the truth of Jesus Christ. It’s all in the timing, Nick.
The fact of the matter is that you can’t prove god’s existence one way or the other. There is no proof one way or the other. God and all things spiritual or supernatural by definition can not be measured and therefore our usual methods of scientific reasoning cannot be applied.
Science can explain how things work not why. Even something as simple and intuitive as the basic laws of physics or gravity are only intuitive because they are the only thing we know. When I drop something it falls. This is a basic and well known law of physics, but why is it true. As we are now finding out, at a very microscopic level, we still don’t know very much about how gravity or friction works. The beauty of this world is that there are apparently endless intricacies in every field of knowledge. Theists can say that the reason any of these phenomena occurs is that god wills it. Alternatively I could claim that poltergeists were following me around throwing to the ground any object I let go of. Without some form of objective evidence, of which there can be none, neither explanation is any more valid than the other.
We are all arguing from a peculiarly western bias, specifically Christian. We are all assuming that the purpose of religion is to console us about our impending death and to comfort us by saying that we will live on in the hereafter with god. Oriental religion serves what would seem to be the opposite purpose. It comforts it’s believers by assuring them that life, and the pains that are inherent in living, aren’t eternal. The purpose of living the good or religious life becomes not the attainment of eternal life, but escape from the wheel of existence with the attainment of nirvana, which is described as a state of blissful nothingness/nonexistence.
If your belief or disbelief in a specific god, or of any god at all for that mater, is based on your personal happiness then that says more about your psyche than it does about god. Just because you would prefer something doesn’t make it objective reality. I would prefer it if I were a millionaire but that doesn’t make it true.
I do not to believe in any god but I recognize that, that is a function of my personal preferences. While I may think less of somebody because of their religious preferences, I’m not going to kill or even harass them over it. I only ask that the same courtesy be extended to me.
Organized religion, however, and all other dogmatic philosophies that demand unreasoning obedience, I despise. Just like people should be judged based on their actions,I believe that any philosophy or theology has to be judged on the actions that they inspire in their followers. While religious belief has undoubtedly inspired a lot of good throughout the ages, organized religion has and still does cause untold horrors and atrocities.
By the way I wouldn’t exactly classify Hitler or Stalin as free thinkers, or free from religion. Hitler was a pagan and Stalin was a Communist.
One last thought, if you are doing something because it is in your best interests, in this life or the next, is it really a moral act? If not how are you any more deserving of heaven than I am.
If a God existed surely there would be one piece of testable evidence to support that claim.
I have never seen one single example of testable evidence and would love to be shown just one.
Any believer here got just one piece of incontrovertible evidence?
If we can not prove who created God, then tell me and prove me where the big bang came from?
What about all the paradoxes surrounding the teachings of the Bible?
God supposedly gave man free will. Lets look at that.
God is supposed to know all. Past, present, and future. He has designed a plan for mankind, and we are held to that plan, so where does the free will part come into play?
Either we do have free will, and gods has no plan, or the plan is already laid out, and we have no free will. Which is true?
Then, there is the question of the origin of god.
I know the standard answer of, “god is timeless, and does not adhere to our laws of time and space”, but it had to have an origin. And so, had to be “created”. Who, or what, was that creator?
Is there an endless progression of gods that require our worship and devotion?
Please, someone give me an answer, other than,”you must have faith”.
ive been as it has been recently “verbally sparring” with a “Fundy” (i get it. its funny, but i had to think about it for a second) on you tube about a pithy comment i left on his “jesus-y” video. Steve pretty much summed up my thoughts on the whole subject so i will not repeat them.. whts really funny tho is the conversation went from me saying “prove it” to him actually threatening me. for the record, i have demanded outlandish, old testament wrath to be brought down upon me, and everyone i ever said “hello” to.. ive broken every commandment i could remember, except for the “killing people” one…the cool part is i actually got a date from this guy when this “world changing” event will happen. for the record its the first day of 2k8….i dont want some lame, flat tire, or crashed computer, i want floods, death, plagues of disease ridden gorillas, and satan to personally come and punch me in the face. if something equally extrodinary happens, or something i can ONLY possibly attribute to a supernatural being, the im man enough to admit i was wrong, and wil gladly go to hell where all the booze, strippers, and videogames are!..if im right, and nothing outlandish does happen, i just want him to admit, that hes wrong, and that he only believes his religious bullshit because it helps him in some way.
please open your minds befroe you read this.
the world is a place among many parallell worlds. There is a GOD but it is not a person, place, thing. It is in everything. Read up Greg Braden for scientific backup ( also on reaching ground zero).
GOD is different in every person’s heart but is in fact the same. Religion is confused. Not 1 religion has all the facts. There are many conflicting interests in the world and the people in power would like if we were all ignorant of the facts. Think of the conspiracy theories…a lot of them are in fact true. Personal experience of a close relative….Take the editing of the bible and all the missing books..destroyed.
Jesus is an ascended master. That means he lived in the higher dimensions “the kingdoms of heaven” while he walked on earth. The second coming is of christ consciousness. Get your DNA activated by a registered pracitioner and start to feel the energy of your true self which is the beginning of this process. We are changing from a 3rd dimensional to 5th dimensional frequency, 1999- 2012 is the 4th dimension ” the time of no time”, that’s why time has speeded up and we are getting many unexplained diseases and viruses etc, our DNA is mutating to another form of being, we will enter the 5th dimension in 2012 and there will be an ascension process which will be complete in 3013. Science is confirming all these occurences, as usual they cannot piece it together as most of the scientists also need evidence for GOD. How can there not be a GOD, if anyone can see the beauty of the world, the galaxy, stars, the immensity of the universe, which is infinite.
Do you no what infinite means?? It means there is no beginning and no end. That is hard to take in but that’s what physics is after arriving at. They also know that there are at least 2000 big bangs within our galaxy after the original one, meaning there are at least 2000 other universes within ours alone. There are also at least 11 dimensions according to quantum physics. No matter how huge it seems, how else can it be that we are here.
Karma and reincarnation make perfect sense if you look at the big picture. Read up on these. Join the Roscirucians or the Rocky Mountain Mystery School. Study Transference Healing. Feel the energy and find out the mysteries for yourself.
Love and light,
Sinead
There is no point in arguing with believers. They ignore facts and science. They don’t need them. They have FAITH! FAITH—a firm belief in something for which there is no proof. Mankind has discovered much about the universe, life, medicine, arts, and the humanities and has changed his thinking and beliefs accordingly in all but religion. He still clings stubbornly to ancient texts written by unknown men who thought the earth was flat and to cure an illness, you anointed yourself with oil. Ancient texts that were written at a time when 90 percent of the people were illiterate and the majority of the literate were priests or monks. What do you suppose they would write about? If people want to believe in this rubbish, that’s their right, but they aren’t content with that. They want to force everyone to believe by incorporating their beliefs into the law of the land. In other words they want to live and make everyone else live in a theocracy, their theocracy of course, not a theocracy of another religion that is also intent on making a theocracy of THEIR dogma. The world is divided into armed camps, each ready and willing to kill and die because they can’t agree on which fairy tales to believe in. If one believes in the Supernatural, or the Almighty, of a Supreme Being, I have no problem with that. But any belief based on the Bible, Koran, or Torah, is simply stupid.
In my opinion, mans worst invention is Organized Religion!
the simple idea of hell boggles my mind. why would an all knowing, all loving god create something that he knows will suffer under his power for eternity? its either the god of the old testament is inexistent, or he is extremely selfish and vindictive.
The fact is that atrocities have been committed in the name of God and religion. But committing a crime in the name of a goldfish does not provide “scientific evidence” against the existence of the goldfish. Human weakness and perversity often turn people against organized religion. This is unfortunate, because usually these peoples’ first impressions are their last impressions and they never look past them into the real message of Christianity.
I have to disagree with anyone who says the existence of God cannot be proven, that faith is the only thing we have to base our religion upon. Faith and reason are not incompatible. A rational understanding of how the complexity of the universe actually proves the existence of God can lead one to accept the gift of faith. After all, there is the argument from contingency. Each life form on earth received its existence from sombody else. The givers of life, of course, had to receive their existence from somebody else. Obviously, this chain could not have gone on forever. Some eternal, non-contingent Being must have started this chain. This Being had to be eternal, because if he wasn’t he was just another created being in the chain. Instead, He was the creator of the human race. None of this argument contradicts science or reason, the real gods of atheism. It is simple logic. To me, scientists who think they can “disprove” the existence of God with their new, advanced scientific knowledge make absolutely no sense. Somehow, they think that learning more about the order of intricacies of the universe provides evidence against God’s existence. In reality, this knowledge should prove to them that there was an all-knowing, all-powerful Creator who knew what He wanted and knew how to get it.
Once one establishes the fact that there was and is a God who created mankind, we can see that He gave man and intellect with which to know Him and a will with which to serve Him. We can also see that this Creator must have been the first Lawgiver, because only with dominion over his subjects can make laws for them to follow. When these subjects disregard the Creator’s laws He can then punish them, so that proper order can be restored. The Old Testament is full of such punishments. God, as the master over human life, could even take the lives of His subjects. These punishments do not conflict with God’s goodness and mercy. He was always ready to lead his straying sheep back to the flock. The pride of the atheist will not allow him to acknowledge God and His dominion over all creatures.
When I see ‘believers’ fighting and killing each other (doesn’t matter which religions are involved). I’m a happy guy.
That means fewer nut-jobs left on the planet that want to kill me, or want to scream at me about going to hell.
Oh, and by the way, I am not violent or encourage violence. I don’t have to. Most religions favor violence as a way to end an argument, or make a point.
But Xavier, we never tried to DISPROVE god through the atrocities committed in his name. We just want absolutely NOTHING to do with an organization that time and time again uses propaganda, genocide, intimidation, and door-to-door flier nazis to propagate their “faith” on the masses.
Jsut a small clarification of the whole atheism thing…in case it become necessary : )
http://atheism.about.com/od/atheismmyths/p/DenialGod.htm
Xavier: You just made my point that it is useless to argue with a religious person. The existence of the universe or universes proves nothing about the existence or non-existence of a god. Either there was no beginning, the universe always was, or you have to believe that something created something from nothing. Both are beyond out comprehension.
I believe in a higher power or spirit that watches over me. I do not believe in heaven. I believe we were born to live a full life that is our gift from our higher power and to live it well, be kind to others and to care and love others and to treat humans with dignity. I believe when we die, we die. Death is to be peaceful, without suffering. We live our heaven and hell right here on earth and we have a choice to make the best of it!
If there was a god that has been preparing me for my future by allowing my past to be what it is, then i am convinced i do not want to be involved with any such god. Way to go!
i just wish nobody would have ever filled my head with the nonsense that there was a god when i was a child, it is incredibly difficult to elliminate this info from my thinking it is so sad now that i know the truth that i have to wrestle with conflicting thoughts(thos that were taught or exposed to and thos that have been prooven) i would give the devil my soul ((haha)) if such a thing existed just to get rid of this god idea,, religion is only usefull to guide people who cannot except their situation as is. It gives an idiot an opportunity to say to a nonexistant entity handle my problem, and if they are true believers then they experience the bliss of their ignorance. Same thing can be occomplished regardless of which god is pursued be it an entity, the sun, or a damn rock or chicken!
Thank you one and all for your comments, thoughts and opinions (dare I say beliefs) on what is obviously a very sensitive and controversial, yet without question, fundamentally, an extremely important subject matter. It has been an intriguing hour or so of reading.
In response… a few of my initial thoughts on the matter at hand…
… It is amazing to me just how much “heat” is generated when humans discuss/debate amongst themselves the inescapable questions of the existence of “GOD” or a “god/s” and the origin of all that we know to exist. I wonder, if indeed we “all” were just the product of time and chance, a multitude of random accidents, nothing more than a chemical equation, would such “heat” be generated in the first place?… Would we even be having this discussion/debate? … Would we even “be able to”? … Would any if this “really” matter? … Why does it, as even this website (and many such like it) testifies to reality that clearly it does… at least to “human beings”…?! Is it even logical that such “chemical products” would be, able to, and want to involve themselves in such questions at all?
Or is it that we do so, are able to, and want to, because we are a lot more than a mere combination of time, chance, accident, atoms and molecules… perhaps we (“all”) have been “created” in the very “image” of GOD after all…?
Food for thought.
I am a former athiest who came to faith through intellectual reasoning. I decided at 16 that all things had antecedent causes and that if enough antecedent causes were known, then even one’s thoughts could be explained. The idea of a god who judges people and punishes some of them for things they must do was rediculous. The idea of free will was not rational. That led me to a depressive phase as I gazed ever deeper into the meaninglessness of existence.
Eventually I had to admit that experience shows that humans (at least humans and perhaps all living things) make decisions that no amount of a priori causation can account for. This implies there exists some element of “magic” or “supernatural” element of life (again, something that can’t be accounted for by reference entirely to causation.) One, in fact, must accept this proposition for life tho have any meaning at all. Otherwise, every thought and action is predetermined and counts for the same thing as a stone on a hill, repeatedly warmed and cooled until it rolls downhill.
I can go on with why Christianity, but given the topic, this should generate enough comment for now.
Thanks for reading.
Give a case against Anselm’s “ontological argument.” Christians love to throw that one out, thinking they are smart. Unfortunately, not enough atheists know how to argue against it.
Good article, i enjoy it very much.
Nobody knows.
Nice but useless debate.
The main point has to be: Will humanity fare better, as a whole, with religion or without it? Are we strong and ready for real atheism?
I live in Israel and looking back at history and present, I have already made up my mind.
Still, it will always be a personal matter, when it comes to beliefs, there’s no “one size fits all”.
You high and mighty monkey MO-FOs! Only several million years old and already thinking we know.. We aren’t even a Level 1 Civilization yet.. Jesus Harlem Christ. This banter won’t mean anything until the ENTIRE population agrees. Good Luck on that shit. Mean while, I’m gonna keep on making fun of Religious people. I’ll contribute to the history books by way of the next great intolerance for a group of people. But then again… That kind of behavior isn’t acceptable for anyone over the age of (insert age you stopped believing in Hallmark holiday card characters).
@ Kevin
The fact that you’re happiness when deluded is no different to a drug addict being happiest when high hardly makes it a good idea. Your statement “Somewhere, deep inside a hardening heart, is the knowledge and belief that there is something out there that is bigger than us” in no way implies that to fill this supposed need one must accept absurdities. One has the ability to reason that if there currently exists no credible idea of what this “bigger than us” thing might be then one can live quite happily without knowing until such knowledge is available. seeing someone become happier because they believe is not in any way proof of that belief, many insane people are quite happy living in a delusion, as you obviously are. There are so many logical and rational ways to dispute all your claims and beliefs but if you are happy in your delusion you won’t want to be educated.
@Andrew
Simple to do – With that argument in effect then God would need to be perfectly soulless, empty, evil, flawed and mindless. Why? Because God must be perfect in all ways of thought even those which are contradictory to desired thought to exist. So God is a big- homosexual-supremely disfigured beyond all repulsion-with a PERFECTLY empty mind.
Think about it.